{"id":29596,"date":"2019-12-03T11:00:48","date_gmt":"2019-12-03T11:00:48","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/one.sightlinemg.com\/defensenews\/uncategorized\/2019\/12\/03\/senate-foreign-relations-chairman-talks-turkeys-erdogan-and-the-hole-hes-dug-himself-into\/"},"modified":"2026-08-07T22:24:27","modified_gmt":"2026-08-07T22:24:27","slug":"senate-foreign-relations-chairman-talks-turkeys-erdogan-and-the-hole-hes-dug-himself-into","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/one.sightlinemg.com\/defensenews\/congress\/2019\/12\/03\/senate-foreign-relations-chairman-talks-turkeys-erdogan-and-the-hole-hes-dug-himself-into\/","title":{"rendered":"Senate Foreign Relations chairman talks Turkey\u2019s Erdogan, and \u2018the hole he\u2019s dug himself into\u2019"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

WASHINGTON \u2015 Before Idaho Republican Sen. Jim Risch took over as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, he was known as a quiet pragmatist, mostly making his mark behind the scenes. A loyalist to President Donald Trump, behind the scenes is also where Risch prefers to air his disagreements with the president \u2015 which often draws comparisons with his more vocal predecessor, former Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn.<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\n

So it\u2019s notable that in a Nov. 22 interview on the sidelines of the Halifax International Security Conference, Risch made a public case for Trump to sign legislation to support pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong<\/a>, even as the president \u2015 amid trade negotiations with China \u2015 was wavering. (Trump has since signed the legislation.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

A key gatekeeper on U.S. foreign military sales, Risch opposes F-35 sales to ally and NATO member Turkey, and he practically personifies Turkey\u2019s strained relations with Congress<\/a>. He discussed upcoming committee action to sanction Turkey<\/a>, his opposition to renewing the New START Treaty<\/a> and his support for proposed sanctions on companies involved in the Nord Stream 2 pipeline<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Your committee has been involved in the passage of the Hong Kong legislation, <\/b>North Macedonia\u2019s accession to NATO<\/b><\/a> and Nord Stream 2 sanctions. What did I miss, and what\u2019s next for the committee?<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Turkey [sanctions] ought to be on that list. Lots of nominations, and those are a big part of my life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

On the Hong Kong legislation, that passed Congress.<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

With all but one vote.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

With a veto-proof majority. And I\u2019m sure that by now you\u2019ve seen the president\u2019s comments about vetoing this legislation. Congress seems very fired up on this issue. What would the reaction be to a veto?<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Well, I didn\u2019t hear the word \u2018veto,\u2019 I heard that he was friends with [Chinese President Xi Jinping]. I think people would be unhappy because they all voted for it. I think the situation on the ground in Hong Kong is why it\u2019s important. This is a poster child for human rights violations, and in front of the whole world, and being done by an entity that\u2019s big and strong and can abuse people. America is about democracy, human rights and freedom, and when you see those things being abused, it gets you fired up.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Is this a conversation about values in addition to interests?<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I think more so a values conversation than an interests conversation. If you mean financial, yeah, sure that\u2019s a conversation, but it\u2019s much more about human rights issues. Anytime you start putting financial [interests] in front of human rights, that\u2019s not a good thing to do. We are first and foremost about human rights, freedom and democracy.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

For a time, you sought to delay action in your committee on Turkey sanctions. Now that the meeting between Trump and Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has passed, and Erdogan doesn\u2019t seem to be letting go of the Russian-made S-400 air defense system, when are you going to hold the markup?<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Just so you know, that meeting was more with me. Erdogan and I were sitting like this, and Trump was sitting here, OK? We had a spirited discussion about things between us. I started out about how pained this is because Turkey has been such a great ally of the United States for many many decades. They hit a fork in the road and took the wrong direction, and for months I\u2019ve had their foreign minister, their defense minister and many, many others come in, and I\u2019ve told them: \u201cLet me tell you an absolute: You cannot have S-400 missiles and the F-35, you can\u2019t do it.\u201d And I think they really didn\u2019t believe us. And I\u2019m hoping that after the discussion I had with Erdogan directly \u2015 and he looks to me like a guy that people probably didn\u2019t want to take bad news to, OK? I was happy to take the bad news to him directly.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So he now knows where we are, and I have told him that no military hardware leaves the country without me signing off on it. I told him directly: \u201cWe have five F-35s right here with your name on them. They are not going to Turkey as long as you have S-400s in the country. They are not going to Turkey because I am not going to sign off on it.”<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Are you hopeful enough that Erdogan got that message that you\u2019re not going to mark up sanctions legislation?<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

At the meeting between us, he was presented with a plan by the United States that would allow him to get out of the hole he\u2019s dug himself into. He couldn\u2019t have the S-400, but we could get him out of it without there being any financial detriment to them. I can\u2019t go into the details of it, but they were talking along those lines in our discussions. He didn\u2019t say \u201cyes,\u201d he didn\u2019t say \u201cno.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I was willing to hold off on the sanctions because we had to bill from the House, and we had [Sen. Lindsey Graham\u2019s] bill, and then you had a third bill that was mine and [SFRC ranking member Sen. Bob] Menendez\u2019s bill \u2015 which is the one that could become law. The others probably had some stuff that was too tough to become law. So in any event, I said at that time that I was wanting to hold off. On the airplane on the way home, Erdogan told the reporters that he hasn\u2019t given up on the S-400s. As soon as I saw that, I said: \u201cWell, I\u2019m gonna take him at his word.\u201d And if I\u2019m going to take him at his word, no sense not to run the sanctions bill. So it\u2019s my intent to move ahead with it sooner rather than later.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Congress already authorized sanctions under the 2017 Countering America\u2019s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act, but the sanctions haven\u2019t been imposed on Turkey. If the U.S. policy of opposing Russian arms sales is going to be viable, aren\u2019t these sanctions necessary? <\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Yes, for more than one reason. First of all, the world\u2019s got to know we\u2019re serious about CAATSA sanctions. You can\u2019t do this [buying S-400 missiles from the Russians]. And this is particularly true with a NATO member. [It\u2019s] not compatible with membership in NATO, nor is it compatible for owning F-35s. It\u2019s important that the world knows and in particular NATO partners know that we\u2019re serious about this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Let\u2019s consider non-NATO partners. What is the takeaway for countries like India and Indonesia that are weaning themselves off Russian equipment and are probably watching very closely this episode with Turkey? Should they be exempt from CAATSA, and are they purchasing enough U.S. equipment to make the case that they should be exempt?<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

This isn\u2019t about purchasing U.S. equipment. This is about purchasing Russian equipment. If they abandon Russian purchases and turn to Sweden, France or Germany, we\u2019re perfectly satisfied with that. There\u2019s no message being delivered about buying from America. This isn\u2019t about that. This is about not buying from Russia.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Do they get a different kind of treatment now than Turkey?<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

This has got to be across the board. This isn\u2019t something that\u2019s got gray area in the middle, OK? This is something we feel very strongly about, and it needs to be enforced.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The New START Treaty is set to expire in 2021. You opposed it in 2010.<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

That is an understatement \u2015 and I lost. I\u2019d like to have that vote today.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nine years later, you said Russia is developing new systems that should be limited by New START. So what now? Should the U.S. let the treaty lapse? If so, how do we avoid another Russia-U.S. nuclear arms race?<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Under current circumstances we should let it lapse. I\u2019m hoping current circumstances don\u2019t continue. The world has learned since nine years ago what I couldn\u2019t say, and I knew because I was on the Intelligence Committee \u2014 that Russia had been cheating for years and years and years, not only on that one, but on the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

They\u2019ve got to come to the table with a different attitude. And I think that it ought to be broad; in a perfect world I\u2019d like to see a three-way treaty with the U.S. and China and Russia. Just between us and Russia, it\u2019s going to be a heavy enough lift, so I don\u2019t think you\u2019re going to get China in there \u2014 but if Russia is acting in good faith, they should be interested, just as we are, in seeing that we also have an agreement with China. This is about preventing a nuclear arms race where you spend billions, if not trillions of dollars, on weapons that probably will never be used. A situation where people don\u2019t have those weapons is in everybody\u2019s best interest.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Do you see substantive work on the part of the administration to save the treaty to find a way to find some new viable path?<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I don\u2019t speak for the administration, but having had conversations with people in the administration, I can tell you that there are a number of people who share the same concerns I have about this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Is there an effort to add sanctions to the National Defense Authorization Act for the <\/b>Russian Nord Stream 2<\/b><\/a>?<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

I\u2019ve been working on that for the last two weeks, and you have to give [Texas Republican Sen.] Ted Cruz kudos on this. He\u2019s been the point person on this. We\u2019re all there, don\u2019t get me wrong, but Ted has been particularly dogged about this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What\u2019s the reason for the sanctions push, and what do they entail?<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

The reason for the push is that this window is closing. A lot of Nord Stream is done already. If we\u2019re going to stop it, and we think we can stop it with sanctions, we are told that there are a minimal number of entities that can actually do this construction \u2015 I think it\u2019s two firms \u2015 and we have time, we have every reason to believe and hope, that when we sanction them they\u2019re going to take it seriously because it will cost them dearly. I think if those sanctions pass, I think they shut down and I think the Russians are going to have to look for another way to do this \u2014 if they can do it. The Russians do not have the wherewithal to do this.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

If this is in the NDAA, that\u2019s a solid line drive?<\/b><\/p>\n\n\n\n

It\u2019s been negotiated between the House, the Senate, the administration and the banking committees.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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