{"id":73238,"date":"2025-07-28T21:03:50","date_gmt":"2025-07-28T21:03:50","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/one.sightlinemg.com\/marinecorpstimes\/uncategorized\/2025\/07\/28\/wwii-book-explores-why-there-wasnt-just-one-v-e-day-or-v-j-day\/"},"modified":"2026-08-08T17:03:47","modified_gmt":"2026-08-08T17:03:47","slug":"wwii-book-explores-why-there-wasnt-just-one-v-e-day-or-v-j-day","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/one.sightlinemg.com\/marinecorpstimes\/veterans\/military-history\/2025\/07\/28\/wwii-book-explores-why-there-wasnt-just-one-v-e-day-or-v-j-day\/","title":{"rendered":"WWII book explores why there wasn\u2019t just one V-E Day, V-J Day"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

In 1945, after six years of devastating conflict, World War II was drawing to a close. But it was more than, as historians James Holland and Al Murray write, the muddy tent in Reims or the triumphant spectacle aboard the battleship Missouri. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

The conclusion of the Second World War saw no less than eight dramatic surrender ceremonies \u2014 six in Europe and the last two in Japan.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Together, the co-hosts of the popular World War II history podcast, \u201cWe Have Ways of Making You Talk<\/a>\u201a\u201d detail the human drama behind the conclusion of the deadliest conflict in human history in their new book, \u201cVictory \u201845: The End of the War in Eight Surrenders<\/a>.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Holland recently sat down with Military Times to discuss one German general\u2019s personal battle to save his own neck at war\u2019s end; President Harry Truman\u2019s decision to drop the atomic bomb on Japan; and a Jewish private\u2019s haunting memories of liberating Mauthausen\u2019s sub\u2013concentration camps.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

This interview has been edited for clarity and length.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

What compelled you two to team up to write about these particular series of events? <\/h4>\n\n\n\n

We were gearing up to cover it on our podcast and then it was actually Al\u2019s idea. Neither of us wanted to do stories about ticker tape falling on Times Square, sailors snogging girls and that lot. What we wanted to do was actually look at the kind of stories behind the surrenders and sort of pitch them all together because it was a really odd end, the end of the war. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

It\u2019s fascinating that V-E Day, May 8, is the one day where there isn\u2019t actually a surrender, for example. Then you\u2019ve got Japan as well. So there\u2019s lots going on. We wanted to look at this through the prism of a range of different people, some obviously incredibly well-known \u2014 whether it be Eisenhower, Churchill or Hitler \u2014 and other lesser-known figures as well. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

I think the story behind the surrender in Italy<\/a> [Operation Sunrise], for example, very few people know that. It\u2019s so bonkers you literally couldn\u2019t make it up. Where\u2019s Quentin Tarantino to make a film out of this when you need it? <\/p>\n\n\n\n

I was also really, really struck by Jonathan Wainwright\u2019s story<\/a>. He was told that <\/b>[Gen. Douglas] MacArthur was going to get off Corregidor and that he was going to have to take over and that meant he was going to have to surrender the American forces in the Philippines. And then there he is standing behind MacArthur on the USS Missouri<\/a> on Sept. 2, 1945 \u2026 but what\u2019s happened between then and March 1942, [when MacArthur left Corregidor], you know? <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Gen. Douglas MacArthur signs the Instrument of Peace during the formal Japanese surrender ceremonies on the battleship Missouri in Tokyo Bay, Sept. 2, 1945. Standing behind MacArthur are Lt. Gen. Jonathan Wainwright, left, and British Lt. Gen. A. E. Percival, commander of Singapore. (U.S. Army)<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

[Wainwright] comes across as such a decent, honorable man. I think that\u2019s the other thing that\u2019s really struck me amongst the Allies. There are some fantastic people, some incredibly highly principled people. At the moment, you can put a question mark amongst some certain world leaders about their integrity, their sense of duty, their sense of honor and decency. You can\u2019t challenge President Harry S. Truman on that, for example. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Whatever you might think of [Truman], his heart, his mind is absolutely in the right place. He steps up in a moment of what to do about the bomb. How are you going to avoid a mainland invasion of Japan? What do you do about the growing problems with the Soviet Union as the war in Europe comes to an end, etc. So I thought to try and look at all that was really interesting. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

The same goes for the Holocaust. By the end of the war, you can\u2019t avoid it. All of these camps are being unearthed, discovered. However, during much of the war, the vast majority of Allied troops, for example, are not thinking, \u201cI\u2019m doing this to save the Jews from the Holocaust.\u201d But they do learn that afterwards, and it gives a completely fresh meaning to what they were fighting. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

There\u2019s some very, very famous American units in the Second World War, but who has ever heard of the 71st Infantry Division? No one. So I liked the idea of having the story of an unknown New Jersey [Jewish soldier] fighting in an unknown infantry division who is a liberator rather than victim. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Authors Al Murray (left) and James Holland. (Al Murray and James Holland)<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

In practice, that final period of the war in Europe was also the beginning of a new phase of the conflict, as troops and the general public alike began to discover the extent of the atrocities they\u2019d been fighting over. How did Alan Moskin\u2019s war end?<\/h4>\n\n\n\n

Moskin is part of the 71st Infantry Division and part of the units that are liberating these camps. They get to this subcamp of Mauthausen called Gunskirchern and there are all these desperate people dying, incredibly ill. Just scenes of absolute horror. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Moskin is absolutely horrified as one camp survivor tries to kiss his boots \u2014 which have, you know, excrement, mud. He\u2019s repulsed by the whole thing. I think his reaction is very honest. He is horrified, but also repulsed by what he is seeing \u2014 that sort of human degradation. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

On May 5, that\u2019s when it\u2019s all over in that part of the world. Although the overall surrender hasn\u2019t happened yet, it\u2019s kind of done there. So the next few days is kind of trying to sort out this camp effectively. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

After the war, he spends an awful lot of time later in life talking to school children about the Holocaust. In 2017, Moskin met Nandor Katz, who was a 19-year-old prisoner when the 71st Division liberated Gunskirchern. Moskin was just 18 at the time himself. It helped to bring the war full circle for him.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Former SS Gen. Karl Wolff appears at a war crimes trial following World War II in Munich on July 14, 1964. (Getty Images)<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

During SS Gen. Karl Wolff\u2019s 1964 trial, the judge dubbed him the \u201cbureaucrat of death.\u201d What would you say his \u201clegacy\u201d is in Italy specifically and the war in general? <\/h4>\n\n\n\n

Wolff is a smart cookie. He\u2019s very charming. He\u2019s clearly less ideological and more of a chancer. For him, it\u2019s the power, it\u2019s the riches, it\u2019s the high living. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

I think that really gets his goat, rather than fanatical antisemitism, or fanatical anti-Bolshevism for that matter. There\u2019s no question that he is trying to get an early peace in Italy. There is no question that he calls off his militias against the partisans in the winter of \u201944 into 1945. So that is in the credit box. But he\u2019s also up to his neck in being involved with the Holocaust. He\u2019s a despicable human being who got incredibly lucky to get away with it. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

The awful thing about it is when you\u2019re telling these Wolff stories, you kind of find yourself slightly gunning for him, which I always find very, very discomforting.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
“Victory ’45: The End of the War in Eight Surrenders” is out now.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

Operation Sunrise itself is incredible \u2014 signed at the end of April 1945 in Caserta, Italy \u2014 before Hitler commits suicide. Although it did not go into effect until May 2, did this contribute to the Soviets\u2019 desire for the May 9 surrender?<\/h4>\n\n\n\n

Well, I think it does play a part. But I think their outrage is slightly overblown. If the tables were in reverse, they wouldn\u2019t have consulted the British or the Americans. So their outrage is mock outrage, but they\u2019re using it as leverage. Keep in mind, everything that comes out of Stalin\u2019s mouth has to be taken with a massive pinch of salt. He\u2019s kind of the ultimate snake, really.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

V-E and V-J Day are well-known; however, lesser so are the German surrenders on May 2 and May 5. Can you briefly touch on those? <\/h4>\n\n\n\n

The one [enacted] on May 2 is the first unconditional surrender by German troops anywhere. \u2026 It is the surrender of all German troops in Italy. It was signed at a time of enormous confusion. You have this crazy situation where you suddenly have all these German troops in the north of Italy and South Tyrol, and they\u2019re all being corralled by the Americans who are slowly but surely catching up. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

And so you\u2019ve got American GIs, military police and Germans side by side directing traffic just because there aren\u2019t enough Americans to go around at that point. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Then the second one is signed on the afternoon of May 4, and then comes into action at 8 a.m. on May 5, and this is a surrender of all German troops in the north of Germany to [British Field Marshal Bernard] Montgomery\u2019s headquarters. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Then the following day, you\u2019ve got the surrender of all German troops in Bavarian Austria to the 6th Army Group. So that\u2019s Alexander Patch, the 7th Army commander, and Jacob Devers, who is the Army group commander. So those are the ones beforehand. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

At that point, it becomes absolutely clear that it\u2019s all over. The really weird thing is that the \u201cnew\u201d German high command is trying to keep the war going to try, in their eyes, save as many German troops as they possibly can from having to surrender to the Red Army, and instead surrender to the West. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

But the idea that 3 million troops facing the Russians are all going to be able to get across this one tiny bridge across the river Elbe, which is about 50-60 miles west of Berlin, is just absurd. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

The gross delusion of the German high command, I think, is just truly astonishing. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

You deal with many personalities in this book \u2014 many seemingly larger than life, like Montgomery and Eisenhower. But you also have President Harry Truman who is thrust into this position of power and has to make perhaps the most important decision of the 20th century. Today, there are still ongoing discussions about whether the Americans should have dropped the bomb or not. To you all, how justified was he in his decision?<\/h4>\n\n\n\n

I actually think there is some validity to that argument as well. If I\u2019m brutally honest, it\u2019s an incredibly tough decision, because he knows that the moment you fire an atomic bomb, you\u2019ve changed the world forever. There can be no change, no going back from that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

So the other way of looking at it is, \u201cWhat\u2019s the alternative?\u201d The alternative is besieging the Japanese home islands, which the U.S. Navy and Allied navies could do. \u2026 But just think about how many people would have been starved to death that way. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Truman addresses a crowd of reporters after issuing a statement after the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, Japan. (Atomic Heritage Foundation)<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n\n\n

The alternative, then, is invading Japan itself. The Japanese have already taunted the Allies on that, saying publicly that every single person in Japan would be mobilized against them. So that is prompting the notions of a couple of million casualties at least, which comes on top of the Western war. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

That\u2019s a huge burden to have to shoulder. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Or, you can drop a bomb, which kills no one on your own side but wipes out a city and then see what happens. They do, and Japan still doesn\u2019t surrender. So then they drop another one. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

I can see why Truman made that decision. I can see that the alternatives were possibly worse, in terms of loss of life.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Are there any small tidbits from the surrenders that particularly stand out to either of you? <\/h4>\n\n\n\n

I think [Gen. Dwight] Eisenhower refusing to have anything to do with the Germans\u2019 delegation in Reims was really interesting. \u2026 And also in the kind of, you know, duel between [Ernst] Kaltenbrunner and Wolff, that sort of absolutely insane shootout that almost happens near Prague, where they\u2019ve got prominent and VIP prisoners. The sort of craziness of an MI6 officer being in the same bedroom as two German generals, you know, one of whom is the architect of The Hunger Plan<\/a>, which was going to potentially kill millions in the Soviet Union.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

There\u2019s so many incidents that just sort of seem mad and nuts. It\u2019s hard to get your head around after such a long war. You would have thought everyone would just want to get it over and done with, but it\u2019s nothing as straightforward as one might think. I think that\u2019s been fascinating to deep dive on.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

A conversation with historian James Holland on his latest book with Al Murray, “Victory ’45: The End of the War in Eight Surrenders.”<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":7,"featured_media":109733,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"single-post-featured-layout","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"_yoast_wpseo_meta-robots-noindex":"","_yoast_wpseo_meta-robots-nofollow":"","_yoast_wpseo_canonical":"","_acf":"","_yoast_wpseo_primary_category":91,"_jetpack_feature_clip_id":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":"","_smg_distribution_targets":[]},"categories":[101,91,12,25,19,69],"tags":[],"coauthors":[3376],"class_list":["post-73238","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-daily-news-roundup","category-military-history","category-news","category-newsletters","category-veterans","category-your-marine-corps"],"acf":{"subheadline":"","legacy_arc_id":"RWZCOBSZ6JHWZOFI5C3D4MK27Q","arc_canonical_url":"\/veterans\/military-history\/2025\/07\/28\/wwii-book-explores-why-there-wasnt-just-one-v-e-day-or-v-j-day\/","remove_feature_photo":false,"is_sponsored":false,"subtype":"featured-layout","redirect_url":"","disable_inline_ads":false,"native_logo_pretext":"Presented By:"},"yoast_head":"\nWWII book explores why there wasn\u2019t just one V-E Day, V-J Day - 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